Ivan Čukić

dr Ivan Čukić

Author of "Functional Programming in C++", KDE developer and Free/Libre software enthusiast

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Lancelot Screencast

Published by Ivan Čukić in the KDE development: Plasma section, on 19 August 2008

I’ve had a feeling that a long period of time has passed since I made a screencast of anything. It turned out that the last one was made more than a year ago.

So, I decided to make a screencast of Lancelot… it beats writing user documentation every time :) enjoy:

The main reason for the cast was the fact that the Parts applet is not that intuitive to use (if you don’t see what you can do with it). And if you’re asking how I know that most of you haven’t tested the Parts applet, then the answer is simple - there are no bug reports on it, while it is the most unstable part of Lancelot.

EDIT: Here you are - the direct download http://www.sendspace.com/file/52jr89 8MB

Comments:

Vide
Ivan, please keep us (or at least me :P) informed when a deb/repo in ppa will exist for Ubuntu Hardy (with KDE4.1 installed from ppa).
Thanks!
Ivan Čukić
@Vide And who is going to keep me posted? :) Just joking, the only thing that I know is that L is available in repositories for Intrepid Ibex.
john
You are trading off not clicking vs. pointing at tiny arrows. I don't think that is a good way to go.
tikal26
nice, I never really understood what the parts applet was about until now and I must say that it looks very nice and useful. i can't wait to tiry it keep up the good work
Jonathan Thomas
@john Actually you can hover over any part of the bar that the arrow is in. You don't have to actually hover over the arrow in the little circle.
xdmx
very nice, i hope to see it directly in kde 4.2... or maybe a 4.1.x version :) (i kinda prefer this than the classic and the kickoff menus... ;) still i'm waiting to see raptor, some day..)
Ivan Čukić
@john Clicking works if you want to click (you can even disable the extenders if you want).
Personally, I find clicking tiresome and unhealthy.
Janne
Very impressive. I love screencasts :). Sorry for dumb question, but will Lancelot be part of 4.1? 4.2? Will it be actually part of base-KDE (possibly replacing Kickoff, or at least being an alternative to it), or will it be an external add-on?
Ivan Čukić
@xdmx Well, this *IS* a version for KDE 4.1, so nothing stands in your way of seeing it :)
Concerning Raptor, we all are waiting for it impatiently :(
Ivan Čukić
@Janne There are no dumb questions, only ... (I don't want to finish this sentence) :D
Since KDE 4.1 is out, and 4.1.x are only bugfix releases, Lancelot will not ship with it. But you can use it with KDE 4.1.
Concerning kdebase, the answer is most probably "no". The reason is that kdebase should contain only one application of the same sort (for example, kate is now in kdedevel or something).
Lancelot, like most Plasma applets (all applets except those that are in the default desktop - task-bar, clock...) will bi in plasma-addons package.
xdmx
Ivan, i mean directly shipped with kde 4.1, without install it a part :) (btw i'm still with kde 3.5.9 for now :( )
Ivan Čukić
@xdmx See the answer to Janne :)
Christophe
Lancelot is great. Looking forward to when it is available more easily.
I would prefer having it in kdebase. We do have calssic and kickoff now. Why not just add a Lancelot entry in the menu selection when right-clicking the icon?
Fred
Awesome work! I'm really look forward to having this applet integrated into plasma-addons. This kind of app makes KDE4 take the head of desktop environments. :)
schnaeppchenblogger
nice, i hope the installation of plasmoids will work in future versions of kde...
i can install them but they aren't listed in the plasmoid-browser.. :(
DreadKnight
I also have no idea where to get Lancelot from :P
Kira
I love the non-clicking idea! But with some more customized menues distros like SUSE or Mandriva, would the part of application and other things works? (Well, currently no kde4.1, but waiting for Mdv2009 to try it :P )
Josh Rickmar (jrick)
Could you put the video up for download? I don't have flash installed on my computer.
Ivan Čukić
@Christophe Well, the classic one and kickoff are not really a different menus. The appearances deceive - a large portion of the code is the same :)
@Fred Thanks :)
@schnaeppchenblogger If you're referring to installing via Applet Browser, then you'll just have to wait. Most of the applets at kde-look are just c++ source code. That can not be installed via GHNS2.
@DreadKnight In the case you are serious (which I really hope you're not) and that you've missed the HowTo on this blog, you could also visit the homepage of Lancelot - <a href="http://lancelot.fomentgroup.org" rel="nofollow">http://lancelot.fomentgroup.org</a>
Janne
D'oH, I forgot that 4.1 has already been released! Anyway, thank you for your answer :)
Ivan Čukić
@Kira What did you mean by "...Mandriva, would the part of application and other things works"?
@Josh Uploading to sendspace... I'll update the post with a link when it is done.
Githzerai
Now, that's what part is for ?!?!?!? I always thought of it as an unfinished "part" of Lanclot, sort of a future extension, never considered this possibility. Weird, because it's so obviously logical. :)
You've done a great job with this. It's a pitty you've made it usable just few days after 4.1 was officialy released as stable ( so most distributions didn't packaged it with the rest of kdeplasma-addons, though it is in the source), but better late than never. And it definitely was worth waiting for.
I owe u a beer. ;)
Now, let's kick off that bug named Kickoff
P.S. You really should sync /trunk with the code in /branches, as I don't think anyone will use the old theme after seeing the new one. ;)
Ivan Čukić
Hehe, Gith, you wouldn't beleive, but I had requests to revive the old theme :)
As for the 4.1, it was not possible since the release (feature) freeze was active a long time before L came to this state. (the reason it didn't ship in packages is that I had disabled it from the build, but didn't want to move it back to kdeplayground :) - with Aaron's backing)
Tobi
It's great! Thank you. The scrolling effect inside the menu looks very polished. What is the easiest way for me testing your release. Do I have to compile it myself or is it somewhere binary?
bb Tobi
Ivan Čukić
@Janne You're welcome :)
@Tobi I think that the easiest way is compiling - at least before KDE 4.2 comes out. ATM, I know only of a Debian package (untested by me). You can find it at http://lancelot.fomentgroup.org/download
Kubuntu package is on its way (at least I think it is :) )
@Bobby Hm, I don't quite understand your second sentence.
Lancelot menu and the applet are completely separated beasts. You can configure the menu from the applet's configuration dialogue, but not vice versa because the menu is always unique, and applets are not. You could add multiple applets on your panel, but they share the same menu.
Bobby
The menu is great. I just think that the right hand main icons are a big to great. I was a little confused as I want to configure Lancelot, and I reached the Lancelot Launcher Applet options just with the right click and not with the Lancelot Settings Icon.
Kira
I mean that would the application part of lancelot works under more customized menu configuration like MDV or SUSE. For example, the favorite menu in my MDV 2008.1 has got their own toolset, which doubts me that the setting may be different like the default KDE.
Ivan Čukić
@Kira Well, the same way they did it in Kickoff, they can do it here. The other thing is that when you start Lancelot for the first time, Kickoff's favourites are loaded (if K was used before).
If they make changes to the menu organization (categories, subcategories and applications), L will see them exactly like other menus do.
Roy Schestowitz
Brilliant stuff! I look forward to using it on my box.
Megabigbug
Great ideas: -no clicks -optimization of the items position/size -integration in plasma (drag'n drop applets, style, krunner, etc)
Bad points: -Layout: The actual layout is not very good in the mode "show only menu launcher icon". I think the kickoff layout is better. With kickoff, the first thing the user see is the favorite panel. With Lancelot, you must look for it. The favorites can be hidden by the application menu. In the best case they are "lost" between the categories and the application menu. Divide them in two categories like kickoff is a better solution imho. -Mouse trajectory: In my opinion, the mouse trajectory is more natural with kickoff and its categories at the bottom. For traveling in the application menu, you must do zigzag movements. An hover mode should be better than the button extender mode for the application categories.
-other notes: If the user is not familiar with the "show menu on icon hover" mode, he click on the icon, and it hide the menu. -the search field is note automatically selected if the user press a key.
Thank you for this great stuff.
Lancelot, el nuevo Menu para KDE 4 « Gabuntu
[...] Lancelot, Lancelo Screencast [...]
Ivan Čukić
@Megabigbug 1. The application browser will probably be set to reset itself so that when you open the menu, you always see the Favourites. Dividing the same thing into two sections is not an option - those all are applications.
2. - Concerning zig-zag, if you use clicking, you don't have it, and if you use the extenders, the zig-zag width is 20px which I really don't find that important.
- hover for categories wouldn't work because if you move the mouse slowly to go to an item below, you could open the category.
- the categories have the same distance from the menu button in L and in Kickoff (if you don't mind the size obviously), but L has the logout and other buttons much more available.

3. The click-close was introduced by a bug request at BKO. So, this was a requested feature :)
Megabigbug
1- "those all are applications."
Why favorites must be only applications ? Why not a favorite device, a favorite webpage, a favorite contact ? A "Favorites" category is not a so bad Idea.
2- "Concerning zig-zag, if you use clicking, you don’t have it, and if you use the extenders, the zig-zag width is 20px which I really don’t find that important."
I know that you can click, but for me, it break your more original Idea: a no click menu.
"hover for categories wouldn’t work because if you move the mouse slowly to go to an item below, you could open the category."
It's true. But I don't understand when it is really a problem. When the favorite panel is going to be hidden ? When you want move below to the right or left side ? (Why not analyse the direction of the mouse movement ? easy to say ^^) When the applications panels move ?
"The categories have the same distance from the menu button in L and in Kickoff"
Let suppose you have only one column by category. With Kickoff you can move right and up. With Lancelot you can move up and down First, back mouvements are not naturals. Second, a column is generally heighter than large. I know, Lancelot have several columns, then these assertions are not always correct. I am not sure, but instinctively, I think the average distances are not the same.
"L has the logout and other buttons much more available."
Yes, but potentially, kickoff can remove a dialog box with the choice "stop/reboot/change user/disconnect/hibernate etc"
With your solution, you can't elegantly made them all available without click.
3. "The click-close was introduced by a bug request at BKO. So, this was a requested feature :)"
Is it not possible to detect that the mouse left the menu icon and move over after ? In these case, you can close the menu. If the mouse keep over you can't. Or with a timer, I don't know. My computer have poor graphic perfs. When I don't see the menu because it appear slowly, by reflex I click on the icon and It close It. It's another case where your "no click" idea is broken.

I am sorry for my bad english, You have made a great work, I hope my critics will give you some ideas. I consider that the click-close problem and the search field selection are the most important before your release.
Ivan Čukić
@Megabigbug A.S. I'm not saying that your ideas are bad, far from it, but unfortunately everything has to have some sacrifices to achieve something else - read on:
1 - you're opening a Pandora's box here. I agree that Favourites could contain web-page URLs, devices etc. but I really don't think they have the place here:
1.1 - general issue - mixing all that would induce much more items in the list, thus invalidating the point of Favourites.
1.2 - web pages - Favourites, or bookmarks, are something that we all have so many, that we organize them into trees, putting the tags to them...
1.3 - devices - we don't have that much devices. And they have their own section. As you could (possibly) see from screenshots, I have 6 fixed media devices. Most people have less than that. What's the point of making one of the favourite when they are so quickly accessible.
1.4 - contacts - that would be cool, but then again, the favourite contacts would belong to the contacts section.

1.5 - I see the reason behind having the favourites of all sections in a separate one, but then, what would be the point of having the other sections?

2. Ok, good one :)
The problems are:
- you have moved the cursor to rest for a second (while looking to find something in the list)
- you want to use the scroll buttons and to move to one of them, you'd have to be very fast and precise in order not to activate the category below.

I can't remember what the name was, but KDE had an application that did automatic clicks when the user rests the cursor for a moment. Although it was a great idea, trust me, it failed miserably. :) After a while you start to accommodate to the behaviour, and to force yourself to pay attention to where you left your cursor which I don't want to do here :)
"you can’t elegantly made them" Yes I can!!!! :P :) :D No, really, I can. The switch user was supposed to look like that but I had no time to do it for this version. It will be something like no-click menus... but later on that subject. :)
The click-hide will be tackled somehow - maybe an inactive waiting period, or the move away - return technique. I'll see :) (and the search box issue... there are some problems with that - it has focus, but doesn't appear to have it)
Anyway, your ideas are more than welcome. Although I said 'no' to most of them, they are stuck in my mind :) Cheerio!
Ivan Čukić
@Megabigbug 1. Yes, but favourites need to be kept simple, or they don't serve their purpose. The only complicated (comprehensive, categorized) part in L are the applications. So there is only the need to make favourites of them.
I agree that the replacing is potentially confusing (at least till the animations kick in), but I think it's better than having 10 columns.
2. The old KMenu is a different kind of beast so you can not make this analogy here.
"It is a shame that it is less usable than a simple menu." De gustibus non est disputandum.
Megabigbug
Ok, I continue our discusion :) I know you must do sacrifices. Do what you want you: It's your project :p Thank you for sharing it with us.
1. 90% of the time you use the favorites. It remove the loss of time traveling the menu. The rest of the time, you want to find easily something, so you want a kind of categorization.
You are right, put together the favorites and the application categories is really not a conceptual problem. The real problem is the size of the menu. It must hide the favorites panel and translate the panel of application categories. In my opinion, the translation is confusing for the user.
2. "The problems are:
- you have moved the cursor to rest for a second (while looking to find something in the list)"

The classical menu of kde have this problem and it use a "mouse over" mechanism. Is it really a problem ?
"you want to use the scroll buttons and to move to one of them, you’d have to be very fast and precise in order not to activate the category below."
If you want to use the scroll buttons of the same level, it is not a problem that the next level change.
If you want to use the scroll buttons of the next level: I'm agree with you. A timer, more or less long, according to the direction of the mouse movement could solve this problem. The classical menu have not this problem and it work fine.
Your project have very original ideas. It is a shame that it is less usable than a simple menu.
The Microsoft choice with XP: a favorite panel, and a menu for the applications. Simple and powerful. Kde must do better.
Temet
Hello, a bit out of topic but you can normally use recordmydesktop with composite using the option "--full-shots" ;)
Ivan Čukić
@Temet The only thing I could say is "Thank you!" :) no matter how off topic it is, it is a good thing to know :)

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